Before every system in a vehicle was computerized, they had other ways to screw do-it-yourselfers and small shops.
Some years ago, my kid sister drove a Honda (car) which popped the timing belt. They had a specific procedure for lining up the timing marks on all the pulleys on each belt driven device so the thing would run. The shop manual was only available to dealers and the procedure was copyrighted. We almost ended up having it towed to a dealer for a $$$ repair.
With a bit of research I discovered that one of the aftermarket manuals (Haynes, Chilton, etc., I forget which) had reverse engineered the procedure with the pulleys in different positions to get around the copyright. $24 manual, $40 belt and away she went. Today, we'd just go to YouTube but I didn't have that option in 1990-ish.
Yeah, everything in modern vehicles has a network address that has to match what's stored in the BCM. I added a fog/driving light kit to my current vehicle and had to pay the dealer $125 for programming to make the new lights turn on. It took all of 30 seconds.
The most brilliant thing I've learned about DIY vehicles in years was an old youtube guy showing how to replace unit front wheel bearings on a fwd car. Throw away your ball joint and tie rod separators that always tear up the joint, even if you're replacing something else. Just whack the casting the taper is seated in a few times with a 2-lb hammer. Very carefully, don't hit the part you're removing.
Yeah, sure. After 250,000 miles and 25 years of winter salt and summer mud.
POPPED RIGHT OFF! Every damn one of them! Ball joints, tie rods, steering knuckles. Less than half-dozen strokes, not even really swinging it. It was harder getting the pins out than removing the tapers. And went back together perfectly; the alignment shop said it was spot-on after the job.
THAT's not in the manual either--
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4 hours ago, DingoJay said:
Before every system in a vehicle was computerized, they had other ways to screw do-it-yourselfers and small shops.
Some years ago, my kid sister drove a Honda (car) which popped the timing belt. They had a specific procedure for lining up the timing marks on all the pulleys on each belt driven device so the thing would run. The shop manual was only available to dealers and the procedure was copyrighted. We almost ended up having it towed to a dealer for a $$$ repair.
With a bit of research I discovered that one of the aftermarket manuals (Haynes, Chilton, etc., I forget which) had reverse engineered the procedure with the pulleys in different positions to get around the copyright. $24 manual, $40 belt and away she went. Today, we'd just go to YouTube but I didn't have that option in 1990-ish.
Yeah, everything in modern vehicles has a network address that has to match what's stored in the BCM. I added a fog/driving light kit to my current vehicle and had to pay the dealer $125 for programming to make the new lights turn on. It took all of 30 seconds.
You were conned. This is why I tell the kiddos to learn theory first. There is only one possible firing order for any in-line engine. Period. And there is only one possible valve timing for any four cycle engine. Period. God said so.
Manufacturers play game to hide that fact. IH went so far as to number their engines from back to front to convince customers that they were different. You wouldn't believe how many cars and trucks that I've fixed simply knowing that after someone else lost the factory marks or used the wrong ones. Chevrolet makes 80 different timing covers and 80 different harmonic balancers for their small blocks and the only difference in them is the location of the timing marks.
Knowing why you do something is important sometimes.
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7 hours ago, DingoJay said:
Yeah, everything in modern vehicles has a network address that has to match what's stored in the BCM. I added a fog/driving light kit to my current vehicle and had to pay the dealer $125 for programming to make the new lights turn on. It took all of 30 seconds.
Old school. Wires and switches. No programming required--
Here we're talking about a brand-new vehicle. I wanted to use the factory wiring, existing steering column switch, relays, etc., without cutting anything up and potentially voiding the warranty.
If it was the 20-year-old pickup I use to tote the dogs, I would have wired it up with aftermarket lamps and a switch and relay from the junk box. Cut a hole in the dash? Make up a "custom" wiring harness with zip ties and black tape? No problem. I used to install electrical / electronics stuff in vehicles for a living.
It's just that this was the first new vehicle I've had in years and I wanted to keep it as close to factory as possible. I'm anal that way.
caterpillar is a serious culprit with the new computer controlled equipment, any sensor shows a not on spec reading for over a few secs, it shuts everything down
requiring a dealer tech to reprogram the entire system taking a day, after waiting a few days for the tech to show up, by the time he does a big job has more then one shut down
at least once a week something shuts down right in the middle of what ever the operator was doing, no clue even why in most cases, almost never need a sensor or anything replaced, just need to reset the computer so it will go past whatever it thought was wrong that has almost always been a very momentary thing. Not possible for the owner or operator to access, and simply click the trouble code and reset.
The old wore out equipment gets more work done in a given week then most of the new shit.
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10 hours ago, arcticwolf said:
caterpillar is a serious culprit with the new computer controlled equipment, any sensor shows a not on spec reading for over a few secs, it shuts everything down
requiring a dealer tech to reprogram the entire system taking a day, after waiting a few days for the tech to show up, by the time he does a big job has more then one shut down
at least once a week something shuts down right in the middle of what ever the operator was doing, no clue even why in most cases, almost never need a sensor or anything replaced, just need to reset the computer so it will go past whatever it thought was wrong that has almost always been a very momentary thing. Not possible for the owner or operator to access, and simply click the trouble code and reset.
The old wore out equipment gets more work done in a given week then most of the new shit.
Hopefully this is the sort of crap that the Executive Order addresses. And then lets someone modify the code without Mfgr voiding warranties or claiming "Proprietary property".
I saw an episode on Discovery where they were trying to use a brand new Dodge engine for short-track racing. Without all the body sensors, passenger compartment processor, dashboard processor, and about 175 Lbs of other passenger car shit. Just the engine computer. After a couple of days of fails they called in a "black hat" crew to hack the engine software. Which was successful, but would be totally disallowed if the owner wanted to do so with the original Dodge (they just used the engine, in a race body, and threw away the rest of the Dodge.)
Um, yeah, I'm quite sure that voided the Dodge warranty. No one would expect otherwise. But the point is, if you buy something, you should be able to do any damn thing you want with it, and not be locked out by the f'ing software.
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1 hour ago, heavyhorse said:
Hopefully this is the sort of crap that the Executive Order addresses.
Not going to happen. What is going on is the marching of tech and personal injury lawyers hand in hand.
Have you noticed that many crane operators wear the control panel and walk around outside the crane? Even "simple" tractors have a programmable 3-point that lets them make turns and rows with speed and precision. That means all controls are electronic. The computer monitors the circuits controlling the hydraulic valves and if any fault is sensed in any circuit the computer shuts down that circuit and all associated with it. The idea is that you can't get into a situation where you can lift a load and not be able to lower it.
That makes conventional diagnosis impossible. The problem is being addressed but it will take time for the solutions to become widely available. For example, I got rather annoyed at a certain CNH product that would not allow me to activate any hydraulics until the engine reached certain conditions (running at speed). That made diagnosis *VERY* unsafe so I built an engine simulator and connected it to the computer. The computer thinks the engine is running so it lets me do what I want to do. Things like that are coming on the market as we speak.
Sounds like 'fail-safe' design taken to the extreme, but if they're going to make everything 'fly-by-wire' so to speak, it isn't surprising. After all, you don't want something like a bulldozer to suddenly stop responding to the controls and flattening a few houses or something.
07-30-2021, 07:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2021, 12:06 AM by heavyhorse.)
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22 hours ago, threelegs said:
Sounds like 'fail-safe' design taken to the extreme, but if they're going to make everything 'fly-by-wire' so to speak, it isn't surprising. After all, you don't want something like a bulldozer to suddenly stop responding to the controls and flattening a few houses or something.
Which raises another related question: Why does every frackin' damn thing have to be on the internet? Including vital infrastructure that has worked just fine for a half century before the 'net was even invented? It's already been demonstrated that some total stranger can take control of your Jeep driving down the hiway and take you on a off-road journey out of your control. Or blow up electric power generators by changing phasing. In one case took out a dam. Do we really need for someone in another country to be able to turn off your furnace in the middle of winter and freeze all your pipes, or 10,000 pigs or turkeys? OK, "read only" if you want to check your doorbell cam or home temperature. But petroleum pipelines? Control of our food and energy, and subsequently the whole economy? And who made the chips for the Patriot Missile System? Or, well, Blue Origin?
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