Quote:
7 hours ago, WinterGreenWolf said:
<blockquote class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote="" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic" data-ipsquote-contentcommentid="9434" data-ipsquote-contentid="856" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-timestamp="1567766484" data-ipsquote-userid="1" data-ipsquote-username="silverwolf1">
<div class="ipsQuote_citation">
13 hours ago, silverwolf1 said:
What's interesting to me here ( because my brain is whacked beyond understanding ) is that humans DON"T recognize their own scent. I can't, though I can identify my own horses and could identify many of the dogs I've owned that way. Even with training your olfactory senses, it's impossible.
Interesting, see I can recognize my own scent.. Though my lack of eyesight may play in to a stronger sense of smell as with my hearing..
Quote:
13 hours ago, silverwolf1 said:
On the subject though, does it prove self-awareness? I don't think so. All it proves is an evolutionary trait to not confuse your own trail with that of the prey you are following.
One thing I think is important to keep in mind here: this is showing self-awareness as we know it.. I'm of the stride that most all mammals possess self-awareness and a sense of imagining, a sense of self as well. Truth be told we can't say with 1000% certainty either: we don't have things like perspectives, internal stratemaps, etc.. for canines that can give context clues.
</div>
</blockquote>
I'm not denying a canine sense of self, or even human style self-awareness among canines. In fact, I believe such exists. I just don't, as far as the article goes, believe it supports it. I'd need to see the full study, see how the study was conducted and see what efforts were made to duplicate the results to go any further. Unlike you, I can't say "most" mammals do in my opinion, though I believe all predator species and many others do. But that's just my opinion, and nothing I can support by evidence.
sw
Quote:
22 hours ago, heavyhorse said:
snip
(is a snake self-aware because it doesn't bite it's own coils, i.e. recognizes it's own smell?).
No, that would be more due to proprioception.
Quote:
6 hours ago, heavyhorse said:
But yeah, it's a published document. Thanks! No harm no foul. We just agree to disagree.
Absolutely HH, we do definitely see things a bit differently on certain things.. But we're all good. [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/smile.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=":)" width="20" />
Quote:
2 hours ago, silverwolf1 said:
I'm not denying a canine sense of self, or even human style self-awareness among canines. In fact, I believe such exists. I just don't, as far as the article goes, believe it supports it. I'd need to see the full study, see how the study was conducted and see what efforts were made to duplicate the results to go any further. Unlike you, I can't say "most" mammals do in my opinion, though I believe all predator species and many others do. But that's just my opinion, and nothing I can support by evidence.
sw
Fair enough, I can certainly understand that.
Quote:
On 9/6/2019 at 3:41 AM, silverwolf1 said:
All it proves is an evolutionary trait to not confuse your own trail with that of the prey you are following.
Which requires awareness of the concept of "self"
Quote:
4 hours ago, cervids said:
Which requires awareness of the concept of "self"
No such awareness is required; as stated, evolution does not favor following one's own scent trail in a circle which wastes energy and resources that could be spent following the trail of something edible or fuckable.
Basically just deselecting your own scent as"edible'. Along with elephants, lions and Farmall tractors.
Quote:
20 hours ago, cervids said:
Which requires awareness of the concept of "self"
Quote:
15 hours ago, heavyhorse said:
No such awareness is required; as stated, evolution does not favor following one's own scent trail in a circle which wastes energy and resources that could be spent following the trail of something edible or fuckable.
Basically just deselecting your own scent as"edible'. Along with elephants, lions and Farmall tractors.
As HH said. Really just a single early lesson that your scent is inedible suffices, but evolution has jumped that step in many instances for many predator species. Most know sight cues from birth of highly patterned animals being poisonous. The gene is put there to recognize your own scent, no sense of self required, just "don't eat that, don't follow that, don't try to fuck that". They learn, by marking, smelling marks, rolling in marks, pressing glands to glands (rubbing body along body), and sniffing butt, not to follow pack members trails, as well as not eat them. Learned behavior also doesn't prove anything. It doesn't disprove it either though...
sw
In my opinion, the first guaranteed sign of a sense of self would be a drive toward fairness.
Quote:
10 hours ago, caikgoch said:
In my opinion, the first guaranteed sign of a sense of self would be a drive toward fairness.
Sounds odd, but a recognition of and compassion toward others shows me a beginning of sense of self.
sw
|
