10-11-2022, 04:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2022, 04:35 PM by Darkmoor.)
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On 10/10/2022 at 9:51 AM, BlackKitsune08 said:
Looks like this thread is dead.
It is just resting.
For some, they are just automatically denying everything because they can't comprehend what is being said. I think they don't want to exert thinking, language comprehension, dig out grammar books, or apply logic to reasoning with concise counterpoint beyond flat denial without support.
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On 10/10/2022 at 9:51 AM, BlackKitsune08 said:
I support the tenets of the Zeta Principles, but also creating a set of tenets to protect the human partner, as well, that works parallel to the ZPs, that way interspecies intercourse can be as safe, consensual and pleasurable for both partners as possible.
Sounds good on paper. A code of conduct among zoos could help protect zoos. Now, where could inspiration be found? Oh, here it is, located in history. From an era where the old guard was around. Someone wanting to learn rather than just bash others might consider investigating what was there. For you, BlackKitsune08, I'll mention that it is worth looking at, at least in a sense of lessons learned if nothing else.
First lesson: Was there a code of conduct among zoos that could be easily followed and was in general, was enforced through peer pressure? What was in that code? What happened when a zoo found another keeping an animal being kept in horrible conditions? They took that animal away, removing it from the abuse.
Second lesson: What happened to it (the code)? If it existed, where did it go? why isn't it still around? Too bad there isn't anyone from the old guard still around that could talk about it. *looks around* oh, wait, there is. A whole bunch of them. Now why do you think perhaps they haven't jumped in to make a comment? Why haven't they been openly asked for their recollections? Is there anything you might have seen to discourage them?
A second point: A code of conduct means nothing without weight. I look around at these Zeta Principles, and personally, I could care less if they existed or not, and here is why: My personal ethics never needed them.
They didn't need to be stated to me, because it was already understood and followed at level of much higher integrity. But I can understand why a group of zoos decided it was worth creation. But its flaws are there. It lacks acceptance and faith. Just looking at a single "other forums", and you can observe a whole population that has no interest in those principles, any more than they have an interest in refraining from human/animal sex because there is a local anti-bestiality law. An unenforceable code of principles or ethics, without tangible consequences, is effectively meaningless. I don't need to be told how to think. So it isn't about me, it's about everyone else, isn't it? That is why a set of principles are written down and put forth. They put them in writing to be able to point to them in comparison of observed behavior. And then what? To wag a finger? I'll wager that can get someone instantly ignored. Well, unless finger wagging is a moderator with some influence or something like that.
And some of the finer nuanced points that I've made is two-fold:
1) Errors, mistakes, and damage can still be done to animals even though, the principles are not violated.
2) the principles are not broad enough, powerful enough, nor even enforced such that they have an impact.
About its only subjective use I've seen is to be put forth to a relatively new person to possibly sway their way of thinking. And, there is (at least) one forum I've seen that want's commentary on the zeta principles just to join that site. Yet, upon gaining entry to the site, it becomes immediately clear that these principles aren't policing ones. Objectification of the animals still occurs.
Yet these principles show how ineffective it is when broadly applied to the community because there are yet other forums that blatantly do not uphold those principles, but have a much higher and active population. So, the only ones that are interested in these principles are likely those that already privately adhere to them. Those that wave them about are preaching to the choir or are being flat out ignored.
So, my conclusion is they are not effective, which means they need improvement. But some people take the topic way to personally to engage in a meaningful way to seek to improve them, and seek ways to make them more effective. My observations are criticism to point out opportunities for improvement. I personally don't need them. They are not an effective tool for my personal use.
Your mileage may vary.
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22 hours ago, WinterGreenWolf said:
I'm currently working with some folks in the background on just that too. Codifying the principals and 'co ethics' for the human side to resolve the jumbled mess we're in now.
Your self contradiction is abundant. It makes me laugh at how you jump all over the spectrum because you can't stand to admit anything I've stated once you see my name. Your disinterest in a reasonable discussion with those you may not agree with only highlights that you are seeking followers, rather than truth or insight. You are interested in having your ego stroked with confirmation and external validation.
Would you care to explain "the jumbled mess we're in now"? Who is "we"?
Care to elucidate how your proposed codification is going to resolve it?
Please notice, I'm not asking you to present your work. I'm more curious about your clarification on how you think you can resolve a problem you perceive. Will you even make it to this statement before your eyes flash red in your one sided feud with that notorious zoo criminal: Darkmoor!
Aren't there more worthy opponents for you, like perhaps some animal user that doesn't follow your precious zeta principles?
Again, I offer you the chance to make a reasoned response to clarify your stance. I'd tell you the ball is in your court, but that might be distracting.
I'll add this last point since you want to 'draw me out' again. But only to give my thoughts on you.
I don't think you're criminal, or reasonable. I think you're a pessimistic, self-absorbed idiot who thinks the entirety of the community revolves around their way of thinking only.
For the record, I even went as far as to tell you we should work on a code of conduct along with the Zeta principals, you just wanted to blather.
So, I'm bypassing you and the rest, I'm working on the code, and ethical stances, definitions and descriptions; hell even the concepts myself. Don't send a boy, or a pessimistic old-timer to do a man's job.
Call me what you wish, but I'm done arguing, I'm going to start taking action here. I'm gathering people, havint them review my documents so far, and carefully wording and addressing the real issues at hand.
So, good luck thinking you're making a positive turn bud, you'll need all the luck you can.
- I'm just going to do it and let you ramble more.
10-12-2022, 06:14 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2022, 06:37 AM by Darkmoor.)
You won't state the problem as you put it, the "jumbled mess we're in". So, am I correct that your answer is that you know better than everyone else and are uniquely the person to do it.
*get's popcorn* This is gonna be like watching high speed crashes in slow motion . . . . My confidence in you is high. . . .
Don't know why It hadn't occurred to me that you would even consider any point I made on what should or should not be part of your code, or even how to word it. You're responses personally bashed everything I've mentioned in this thread. Makes it sooooooo totally obvious that you want to work with me! (should I add more o's to make sure you can read the sarcasm or is that enough?) *shrugs*
Guess it doesn't matter that I have pieces of archive about the zoo creed from Zoophile's Forum, back when it was discussed. Feh, you probably aren't interested in history anyway, because look where it got you now, all being about in charge and taking action.
So, at least I don't have to worry about you feeling the need to respond as now I'm totally bypassed. *phew* was soooooo worried there, for a moment I mistakenly thought you might produce some content instead of just broadcasting how you are the next great zoo savior.
On reflecting back to that zealot thing, I think I'll agree with you. You were right that it should be applied to you.
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On 10/10/2022 at 0:20 PM, WinterGreenWolf said:
~snip~
I'm currently working with some folks in the background on just that too. Codifying the principals and 'co ethics' for the human side to resolve the jumbled mess we're in now.
I'm curious as to why you're working in the background?!?! Wouldn't you welcome input from any and all?
Perhaps a post on this (or another) forum with your work to date with an invitation to participate in thoughts, etc.?
I don't mean discussing the pros and cons, simply input to wording your manifesto... err, Code.
Just an idea.
HIway.
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5 hours ago, Hiway said:
I'm curious as to why you're working in the background?!?! Wouldn't you welcome input from any and all?
Because working in the foreground and making any movement, even tossing ideas out to people in any Zoo 'community front' has been an absolute pain-in-the-ass disaster. It's really not been productive at all because everyone is so set in their ways. I'm letting people come to me now, and sort of 'showing my work' as it were behind the scenes to actually get something done.
Everything being shot down and burned in the name of blackout pessimism just isn't doing it for me.
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5 hours ago, Hiway said:
Perhaps a post on this (or another) forum with your work to date with an invitation to participate in thoughts, etc.?
I will post it, likely... but only when near completion. The reason for this is so the 'code' can be largely finished without gaps for people to try and exploit, twist, or perform the same exact thing that's been happening in this thread. Leaving the 'development' in cynical hands just stalls it. As pretentious as it sounds, I at least have some ambition and drive for even the simplest of changes still, and I'd at least like to carry the idea as far as I possibly can.
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5 hours ago, Hiway said:
I don't mean discussing the pros and cons, simply input to wording your manifesto... err, Code.
Just an idea.
Ha, it's as long as a 'manifesto' at this stage.. But don't worry, I am taking a neutral approach and working with a few others on things like definitions. I've gotten the section on the principals done. Now I'm going to really have to think on it, and work on the 'Zoo-to-Zoo' part of it... that's not going to be easy.
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6 hours ago, Hiway said:
I'm curious as to why you're working in the background?!?! Wouldn't you welcome input from any and all?
Perhaps a post on this (or another) forum with your work to date with an invitation to participate in thoughts, etc.?
I don't mean discussing the pros and cons, simply input to wording your manifesto... err, Code.
Just an idea.
HIway.
I can give you some insight, Hiway.
He's works across discord verbally, because spoken words are ephemeral, non-binding, and are gone as soon as they are said. As compared to using a text based forum where he'd have to actually commit to an actual position and subject himself to scrutiny from others. Scrutiny he is not willing endure because it is a house of cards ready to crumble at the slightest touch and resorts to bashing character because he cannot support his own views. He wants validation, not genuine debate. This is HIS idea, not the conglomerate wisdom of the majority. Be sure he wants to control and steer the generation of this manifesto, so he can claim fame and glory and rise to leadership as it will be HIS.
He is also someone that should be considered as having support from Wolf J. Lupus, whom is known for having strong opinions on being a loud and proud zoo, particularly in non-zoo sectors. I've confirmation that WinterGreenWolf has been recommended by WJL to others.
I'll continue on with a prediction: Because he is working behind the scenes as he puts it, it means he will be fully vested into it if/when he does put it forth, and then anything said about it will be a direct attack on him, which means, his great manifesto will be defended tooth and nail, and potentially published far and wide without regards to reality or reason. And then he will state that there were many that contributed, when the truth will be a very short select list that are willing to talk to him over discord, where there will be no actual record of what was said, and he will be at liberty to take anything into a context of his choosing. So, that will be fully misrepresented as well.
However, you and I have and many other zoos have seen the zealots come and go, all self declared as the next zoo savior. One question I have is if his rise and fall will be contained within the zoo sectors, or will he be instrumental in causing the next witch hunt, or maybe he want's his legacy to include some new anti-zoo laws, or more doxing by anti's . . . . But be assured, he feels he knows what zoos need better than we do, and will tell you that his manifesto is desperately required for the future of zoophilia. All this despite that we've been around for decades (and even centuries before the internet era) without him.
Considering his lack of transparency and his willingness to engage in general bashing, and the display of inability to present his ideas with some form of controlled demeanor, he is walking the same path of his predecessors. So far, he's remaining consistent in behavior, communication, and reasoning of the zealots that have come and gone before him. Probably why he isn't interested in the historic knowledge of the likes of the old guard such as you and me. I wonder what his reaction will be when he realizes that Kharrs is old guard too. I remember debating Kharrs on the newsgroups.
So, his "come to me" thing is telling you that you'll have to join his discord and listen to him blather, if you are interested.
10-17-2022, 12:14 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2022, 12:15 AM by WolfJLupus.)
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On 10/12/2022 at 9:53 AM, Darkmoor said:
He is also someone that should be considered as having support from Wolf J. Lupus, whom is known for having strong opinions on being a loud and proud zoo, particularly in non-zoo sectors. I've confirmation that WinterGreenWolf has been recommended by WJL to others.
While I'm current in a Telegram group with WinterGreen (WG), I don't recall ever talking about WG. At present, I have no opinions about WG. I've barely talked to him, so I would not be in a position to recommend WG in any capacity. I don't know where you have confirmed my recommendations?
I'm also not one for pride, but I am a zoo activist. I've been openly zoo for 25 years and I'm quite tired of all the marginalization in communities we helped build (furry, therian, etc). Including by other zoos who lend to the same marginalization efforts.
I don't see how my associations matter either way though. Whom someone associates with, is usually quite trivial.
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20 minutes ago, WolfJLupus said:
While I'm current in a Telegram group with WinterGreen (WG), I don't recall ever talking about WG. At present, I have no opinions about WG. I've barely talked to him, so I would not be in a position to recommend WG in any capacity. I don't know where you have confirmed my recommendations?
I'm also not one for pride, but I am a zoo activist. I've been openly zoo for 25 years and I'm quite tired of all the marginalization in communities we helped build (furry, therian, etc). Including by other zoos who lend to the same marginalization efforts.
I don't see how my associations matter either way though. Whom someone associates with, is usually quite trivial.
Well said. [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/smile.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=":)" width="20" />
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23 hours ago, WolfJLupus said:
While I'm current in a Telegram group with WinterGreen (WG), I don't recall ever talking about WG. At present, I have no opinions about WG. I've barely talked to him, so I would not be in a position to recommend WG in any capacity. I don't know where you have confirmed my recommendations?
Interesting. When I asked how WG was met, the reference I got was you. He might have been implying it was through your telegram group, but his wording seemed to indicate it was a more direct conversation with you. *shrugs* I wasn't there, the person is someone I think we both trust, and we'll just have to chalk it up about how ephemeral the spoken word is. Not that it matters, considering you've shown up either in support of him, or at least to counter anything I might have mentioned about you.
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23 hours ago, WolfJLupus said:
I'm also not one for pride, but I am a zoo activist. I've been openly zoo for 25 years and I'm quite tired of all the marginalization in communities we helped build (furry, therian, etc). Including by other zoos who lend to the same marginalization efforts.
Sorry, vocabulary shortcut. Just like using Community. Chalk it up to failing of the looseness of definitions. My implications on loud and proud was more on that you don't hide but stand there with nothing for them to attack. I don't disagree that zoos contributed to those other communities. Hell, I'm one of them that was "marginalized" (as you put it) by those groups. *shrugs* I'm quite happy to have been dismissed and forgotten about, honestly. And while you and I have personally interacted, the path you walk is certainly a different path than the one I walk. Personal choice and all that. I've only found you've only talked for yourself. Not that I'd choose your path, but I'm pretty sure you know that.
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23 hours ago, WolfJLupus said:
I don't see how my associations matter either way though. Whom someone associates with, is usually quite trivial.
Your association matters, as he certainly approves of your opinion. Winter has already demonstrated how he will hold others to any sort of interaction with a known figure, and seeks to marginalize his own interactions for the benefit of his personal reputation. Looks like he's already lining up for the figurative selfie with you.
So, when I combine Winter, as the author of his manifesto in progress, with the limited information he presents, I have to glance at what his associations are, such as who he seeks to draw inspiration from. These are the only glimpses I have at the moment, so my speculations have had to do, as he doesn't want to share.
I don't feel he's given me an invite to his discord. And I'm sure he wouldn't welcome any input that I might have, given his reactions in this thread.
Anyway, I see you there, WJL. Didn't intend a summoning.
Although, we can use some reasoned content around here.
I'll catch ya around the forum, for sure.
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